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	<title>Comments on: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 1)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/</link>
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		<title>By: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 8) « Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16790</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 8) « Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 04:36:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16790</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] They computed the first-order bias of the information and then used a Bayesian technique to estimate the number of responses not included in the sample but that would be in an infinite sample (a goal similar to that of &lt;b&gt;Good&#8217;s rule of thumb&lt;/b&gt;). ]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] They computed the first-order bias of the information and then used a Bayesian technique to estimate the number of responses not included in the sample but that would be in an infinite sample (a goal similar to that of <b>Good&#8217;s rule of thumb</b>). </p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16163</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Graham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 22:11:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16163</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Yes, two large counts happening to be equal is a problem with my scheme.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes, two large counts happening to be equal is a problem with my scheme.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris Borcic</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16135</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boris Borcic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 10:37:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16135</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The meat of the argument seems to be a variation on the observation that to establish the presence of a species in a patch of territory you only need to explore the patch until the first specimen while to establish its absence you need to explore the whole patch. As presented at BBC or in the abstract I don&#039;t find it convincingly relevant, but the details of the Nature paper are available for 30$.

&lt;i&gt;Species–area relationships always overestimate extinction rates from habitat loss&lt;/i&gt;

Fangliang He &amp; Stephen P. Hubbell
Nature 473, 368–371 (19 May 2011) doi:10.1038/nature09985]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The meat of the argument seems to be a variation on the observation that to establish the presence of a species in a patch of territory you only need to explore the patch until the first specimen while to establish its absence you need to explore the whole patch. As presented at BBC or in the abstract I don&#8217;t find it convincingly relevant, but the details of the Nature paper are available for 30$.</p>
<p><i>Species–area relationships always overestimate extinction rates from habitat loss</i></p>
<p>Fangliang He &amp; Stephen P. Hubbell<br />
Nature 473, 368–371 (19 May 2011) doi:10.1038/nature09985</p>
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		<title>By: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 2) &#171; Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16105</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 2) &#171; Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 02:33:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16105</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Last time I mentioned the Good&#8211;Turing estimate for how likely it is that the next thing we encounter is one of a brand new kind. The discussion that blog entry triggered has been very helpful! Among other things, it got Lou Jost more interested in this subject. Two days ago, he showed me the following simple argument for the Good&#8211;Turing estimate. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Last time I mentioned the Good&#8211;Turing estimate for how likely it is that the next thing we encounter is one of a brand new kind. The discussion that blog entry triggered has been very helpful! Among other things, it got Lou Jost more interested in this subject. Two days ago, he showed me the following simple argument for the Good&#8211;Turing estimate. [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16101</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 01:40:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16101</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I fixed the link to &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/cogs502/GoodTuring1953.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I. J. Good&#039;s paper&lt;/a&gt;.  Firefox has stopped including the &quot;http://&quot; in its display of URLs.  This is why two links in this blog entry didn&#039;t work.  But it&#039;s weird, because until very recently, Firefox included the &quot;http://&quot; when I cut-and-pasted URLs from that display, despite not showing the &quot;http://&quot;.

&lt;blockquote&gt;
My guess (intuition and ignorance mixed together) is that the estimator is asymptotically unbiased and an n=3 is to small a sample for its bias to get small.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

That sounds right.  Theorem 1 in &lt;a href=&quot;http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.41.7209&amp;rep=rep1&amp;type=pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;the paper by Macallister and Schapire&lt;/a&gt; seems to say this estimator is asymptotically unbiased.  (My main uncertainty here is that I&#039;m just guessing the official definition of &#039;asymptotically unbiased 
estimator&#039;.  The theorem certainly gives a sense in which the estimator gets less biased as the sample size increases.)

By the way, after having gone to different restaurants for 4 days, I skipped lunch on the 5th, but the rest of the gang went to yet another new restaurant.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I fixed the link to <a href="http://www.ling.upenn.edu/courses/cogs502/GoodTuring1953.pdf" rel="nofollow">I. J. Good&#8217;s paper</a>.  Firefox has stopped including the &#8220;http://&#8221; in its display of URLs.  This is why two links in this blog entry didn&#8217;t work.  But it&#8217;s weird, because until very recently, Firefox included the &#8220;http://&#8221; when I cut-and-pasted URLs from that display, despite not showing the &#8220;http://&#8221;.</p>
<blockquote><p>
My guess (intuition and ignorance mixed together) is that the estimator is asymptotically unbiased and an n=3 is to small a sample for its bias to get small.
</p></blockquote>
<p>That sounds right.  Theorem 1 in <a href="http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/download?doi=10.1.1.41.7209&amp;rep=rep1&amp;type=pdf" rel="nofollow">the paper by Macallister and Schapire</a> seems to say this estimator is asymptotically unbiased.  (My main uncertainty here is that I&#8217;m just guessing the official definition of &#8216;asymptotically unbiased<br />
estimator&#8217;.  The theorem certainly gives a sense in which the estimator gets less biased as the sample size increases.)</p>
<p>By the way, after having gone to different restaurants for 4 days, I skipped lunch on the 5th, but the rest of the gang went to yet another new restaurant.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris Borcic</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16097</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boris Borcic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 24 Jun 2012 00:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16097</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I find something a bit unclear about your counting procedure. It would seem from the line ending in (2), that you treat repeated counts in such a way that the estimate becomes quite sensitive to a circumstance that shouldn&#039;t impact IMO - that of two large counts happening to be equal. Also, it would help if you&#039;d named number of species and number of specimens in a more distinctive way. My first perception is that the greater simplicity of my version of &quot;reversing&quot; makes it easier to bring assumptions into focus.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I find something a bit unclear about your counting procedure. It would seem from the line ending in (2), that you treat repeated counts in such a way that the estimate becomes quite sensitive to a circumstance that shouldn&#8217;t impact IMO &#8211; that of two large counts happening to be equal. Also, it would help if you&#8217;d named number of species and number of specimens in a more distinctive way. My first perception is that the greater simplicity of my version of &#8220;reversing&#8221; makes it easier to bring assumptions into focus.</p>
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		<title>By: Boris Borcic</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16056</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boris Borcic]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 10:47:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16056</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[To understand the future, you need to think about the past, sure, but I meant something more like using imagination to reverse the gears of learning (twice in a row over a short sequence, if need be).

Meanwhile, I see 20/20 hindsight &lt;a&gt;- a phenomenon acknowledged enough to get a nickname -&lt;/a&gt; as proof that people don&#039;t generally understand the contemplation of the past to involve similar gear-reversals.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To understand the future, you need to think about the past, sure, but I meant something more like using imagination to reverse the gears of learning (twice in a row over a short sequence, if need be).</p>
<p>Meanwhile, I see 20/20 hindsight <a>- a phenomenon acknowledged enough to get a nickname -</a> as proof that people don&#8217;t generally understand the contemplation of the past to involve similar gear-reversals.</p>
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		<title>By: davidtweed</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16046</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[davidtweed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16046</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Turns out this item was actually written up on the BBC website &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17826898&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Turns out this item was actually written up on the BBC website <a href="http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/magazine-17826898" rel="nofollow">here</a>.</p>
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		<title>By: davidtweed</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-16043</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[davidtweed]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 23 Jun 2012 08:17:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-16043</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually there topic of &quot;reversibility arguments&quot; brings up something I&#039;ve been meaning to mention. A month or so ago the BBC radio series &quot;More or less&quot; had a piece interviewing some scientist (name forgotten) who was claiming most biodiversity loss estimates were inaccurate overestimates of loss. Apparently, if I understand it correctly, there&#039;s two steps typically used:

1. Select a series of nested pieces of land (of some type) increasing size and &quot;count&quot; the number of species in each. (The estimation in the count doesn&#039;t really matter.) From this construct a curve of how the number of species varies with area.

2. Take an existing area with a &quot;counted&quot; number of species and a projected area reduction and use the curve to produce an estimate of the new number of species.

The argument was that an implied reversibility symmetry isn&#039;t there: species are more &quot;robust to loss in the presence of declining area&quot; than they are &quot;prone to speciation in the presence of increasing area&quot;, so simple reversing doesn&#039;t work. The scientist wasn&#039;t claiming that biodiversity loss wasn&#039;t happening, just that many numerical predictions were dramatic overestimates.

(Alert readers will have spotted that this isn&#039;t an exact reversal; ideally step 1 would actively expand the area and watch speciation happen rather than just be a &quot;measurement artifact&quot;. The radio piece, which I was half listening to while stripping wallpaper, did stress that a non-applicable reversibility was being assumed in standard models.)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually there topic of &#8220;reversibility arguments&#8221; brings up something I&#8217;ve been meaning to mention. A month or so ago the BBC radio series &#8220;More or less&#8221; had a piece interviewing some scientist (name forgotten) who was claiming most biodiversity loss estimates were inaccurate overestimates of loss. Apparently, if I understand it correctly, there&#8217;s two steps typically used:</p>
<p>1. Select a series of nested pieces of land (of some type) increasing size and &#8220;count&#8221; the number of species in each. (The estimation in the count doesn&#8217;t really matter.) From this construct a curve of how the number of species varies with area.</p>
<p>2. Take an existing area with a &#8220;counted&#8221; number of species and a projected area reduction and use the curve to produce an estimate of the new number of species.</p>
<p>The argument was that an implied reversibility symmetry isn&#8217;t there: species are more &#8220;robust to loss in the presence of declining area&#8221; than they are &#8220;prone to speciation in the presence of increasing area&#8221;, so simple reversing doesn&#8217;t work. The scientist wasn&#8217;t claiming that biodiversity loss wasn&#8217;t happening, just that many numerical predictions were dramatic overestimates.</p>
<p>(Alert readers will have spotted that this isn&#8217;t an exact reversal; ideally step 1 would actively expand the area and watch speciation happen rather than just be a &#8220;measurement artifact&#8221;. The radio piece, which I was half listening to while stripping wallpaper, did stress that a non-applicable reversibility was being assumed in standard models.)</p>
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		<title>By: Graham</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/06/21/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-1/#comment-15979</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Graham]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 22 Jun 2012 20:55:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10237#comment-15979</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I like the time-reversed idea, but I think the most natural way of getting an estimate from the reversed process is like this. Having observed N orchids and got your list of numbers summing to N, you find all the lists summing to N+1 that can produce the observation by removing one orchid, and weight these lists by the number of ways they produce the observation. Example:

15, 10, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1      (15)
14, 11, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1      (11)
14, 10, 9, 6, 1, 1, 1       (9)
14, 10, 8, 7, 1, 1, 1       (7)
14, 10, 8, 6, 2, 1, 1       (2)
14, 10, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1    (4)

So you estimate P(43rd orchid is a new species) = 4/48 = 1/12. This is not What Good does, but is not far off, and seems reasonable. If you have observed N different species, the estimate is (N+1)/(N+3). This gives 2/3 in the restaurant example, which I think is better than 1.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like the time-reversed idea, but I think the most natural way of getting an estimate from the reversed process is like this. Having observed N orchids and got your list of numbers summing to N, you find all the lists summing to N+1 that can produce the observation by removing one orchid, and weight these lists by the number of ways they produce the observation. Example:</p>
<p>15, 10, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1      (15)<br />
14, 11, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1      (11)<br />
14, 10, 9, 6, 1, 1, 1       (9)<br />
14, 10, 8, 7, 1, 1, 1       (7)<br />
14, 10, 8, 6, 2, 1, 1       (2)<br />
14, 10, 8, 6, 1, 1, 1, 1    (4)</p>
<p>So you estimate P(43rd orchid is a new species) = 4/48 = 1/12. This is not What Good does, but is not far off, and seems reasonable. If you have observed N different species, the estimate is (N+1)/(N+3). This gives 2/3 in the restaurant example, which I think is better than 1.</p>
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