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	<title>Comments on: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 4)</title>
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	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/</link>
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		<title>By: More Second Laws of Thermodynamics « Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-18735</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[More Second Laws of Thermodynamics « Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 24 Aug 2012 14:14:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-18735</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[As I explained a while ago, R&#233;nyi entropies are important ways of measuring biodiversity. But here&#8217;s what I learned just now,  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I explained a while ago, R&eacute;nyi entropies are important ways of measuring biodiversity. But here&#8217;s what I learned just now,  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 7) « Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16678</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 7) « Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jul 2012 07:54:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16678</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Equating &#8216;biodiversity&#8217; with &#8216;Shannon entropy&#8217; is sloppy: for starters, there are many measures of biodiversity.  [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Equating &#8216;biodiversity&#8217; with &#8216;Shannon entropy&#8217; is sloppy: for starters, there are many measures of biodiversity.  [...]</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16585</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 13:16:16 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Here are two papers that attempt to uniquely characterize the Hill numbers:

&#8226; S. Chakravarty and W. Eichhorn, An axiomatic characterization of a generalized entropy index of concentration, &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.springerlink.com/content/qj554j5325t62615/?MUD=MP&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Journal of Productivity Analysis&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;2&lt;/b&gt; (1991) 103–112.

&#8226; Heikki Pursiainen, &lt;a href=&quot;http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/val/kansa/vk/pursiainen/consiste.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;i&gt;Consistent Aggregation Methods and Index Number Theory&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, Ph.D Thesis, Faculty of Social Sciences, University of Helskini, 2005.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here are two papers that attempt to uniquely characterize the Hill numbers:</p>
<p>&bull; S. Chakravarty and W. Eichhorn, An axiomatic characterization of a generalized entropy index of concentration, <i><a href="http://www.springerlink.com/content/qj554j5325t62615/?MUD=MP" rel="nofollow">Journal of Productivity Analysis</a></i> <b>2</b> (1991) 103–112.</p>
<p>&bull; Heikki Pursiainen, <a href="http://ethesis.helsinki.fi/julkaisut/val/kansa/vk/pursiainen/consiste.pdf" rel="nofollow"><i>Consistent Aggregation Methods and Index Number Theory</i></a>, Ph.D Thesis, Faculty of Social Sciences, University of Helskini, 2005.</p>
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		<title>By: romain</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16582</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[romain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 10:37:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16582</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Here&#039;s a paper in Neural Computation about my work:

* http://www.anc.upmc.fr/biblioNca/pdf/Brasselet2011a.pdf

(the interesting part is between p.7 and p.14.)

It only deals with mutual information between 2 sets of which only one is equipped with a distance. That&#039;s why there is a caveat in the additivity property. The version with 2 sets equipped with a distance is more elegant but yet to be published.

The gap between communication theory and biodiversity is rather wide and I don&#039;t claim that it can be useful here. But it&#039;s interesting to see that similar ideas appeared in so different fields.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here&#8217;s a paper in Neural Computation about my work:</p>
<p>* <a href="http://www.anc.upmc.fr/biblioNca/pdf/Brasselet2011a.pdf" rel="nofollow">http://www.anc.upmc.fr/biblioNca/pdf/Brasselet2011a.pdf</a></p>
<p>(the interesting part is between p.7 and p.14.)</p>
<p>It only deals with mutual information between 2 sets of which only one is equipped with a distance. That&#8217;s why there is a caveat in the additivity property. The version with 2 sets equipped with a distance is more elegant but yet to be published.</p>
<p>The gap between communication theory and biodiversity is rather wide and I don&#8217;t claim that it can be useful here. But it&#8217;s interesting to see that similar ideas appeared in so different fields.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16578</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 06 Jul 2012 07:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16578</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sandrine Pavoine has a cool paper that studies variability within species of butterflies:

&#8226; V. Stevens, S. Pavoine and M. Baguette, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011123&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Variation within and between closely related species uncovers high intra-specific variability in dispersal&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;i&gt;PloS ONE&lt;/i&gt; (2010) 5:e11123.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sandrine Pavoine has a cool paper that studies variability within species of butterflies:</p>
<p>&bull; V. Stevens, S. Pavoine and M. Baguette, <a href="http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0011123" rel="nofollow">Variation within and between closely related species uncovers high intra-specific variability in dispersal</a>, <i>PloS ONE</i> (2010) 5:e11123.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16567</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 05 Jul 2012 14:48:15 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[It would be nice to get a reference to your paper where you defined entropy for probability distributions on sets with distance functions!  Tom and Christina would be interested.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It would be nice to get a reference to your paper where you defined entropy for probability distributions on sets with distance functions!  Tom and Christina would be interested.</p>
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		<title>By: romain</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16541</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[romain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 04 Jul 2012 12:26:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16541</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Ok, I hadn&#039;t reckoned the elements of the set could differ from usual species.

Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn&#039;t mutual information rather than entropy be helpful in such cases? 
If we consider a set $latex S$ of species and a set $latex R$ of individuals, then we can define entropies $latex H(S)$, $latex H(R)$ and also on the set of individuals of a single species $latex H(R&#124;s_i)$. These different measures could account for the biodiversity of species, across species and within species. Though I&#039;m not sure exactly how to interpret it in terms of biodiversity, we could even compute an information between these two sets. 

Funnily enough, in 2009, in a different context (computational neuroscience), I defined an entropy on sets equipped with a distance that is identical to that of Tom Leinster (or Ricotta and Szeidl 2006 which I did not know at that time). But instead of using Renyi entropy, I sticked to Shannon and studied the mutual information (MI) on sets equipped with distances. 

In biodiversity, the MI would tell you about how species are different compared to their inner variability. Or conversely, their inner variability would appear as a reference &quot;scale&quot; to measure the between-species variability. 

But again, just thinking out loud here (and incidentally indecently advertised my work...)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I hadn&#8217;t reckoned the elements of the set could differ from usual species.</p>
<p>Just thinking out loud here, but wouldn&#8217;t mutual information rather than entropy be helpful in such cases?<br />
If we consider a set <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=S&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='S' title='S' class='latex' /> of species and a set <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=R&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='R' title='R' class='latex' /> of individuals, then we can define entropies <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=H%28S%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='H(S)' title='H(S)' class='latex' />, <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=H%28R%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='H(R)' title='H(R)' class='latex' /> and also on the set of individuals of a single species <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=H%28R%7Cs_i%29&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='H(R|s_i)' title='H(R|s_i)' class='latex' />. These different measures could account for the biodiversity of species, across species and within species. Though I&#8217;m not sure exactly how to interpret it in terms of biodiversity, we could even compute an information between these two sets. </p>
<p>Funnily enough, in 2009, in a different context (computational neuroscience), I defined an entropy on sets equipped with a distance that is identical to that of Tom Leinster (or Ricotta and Szeidl 2006 which I did not know at that time). But instead of using Renyi entropy, I sticked to Shannon and studied the mutual information (MI) on sets equipped with distances. </p>
<p>In biodiversity, the MI would tell you about how species are different compared to their inner variability. Or conversely, their inner variability would appear as a reference &#8220;scale&#8221; to measure the between-species variability. </p>
<p>But again, just thinking out loud here (and incidentally indecently advertised my work&#8230;)</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16518</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 10:34:31 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16518</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Good point!  Tom Leinster, who is working on the mathematical foundations of biodiversity, has also worked on the math of generalized means---read his &lt;a href=&quot;http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2011/03/characterizing_the_generalized.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;blog article on this subject&lt;/a&gt;!  He&#039;s hoping to use theorems that uniquely characterize the generalized means to get theorems that uniquely characterize the Hill numbers.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good point!  Tom Leinster, who is working on the mathematical foundations of biodiversity, has also worked on the math of generalized means&#8212;read his <a href="http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/category/2011/03/characterizing_the_generalized.html" rel="nofollow">blog article on this subject</a>!  He&#8217;s hoping to use theorems that uniquely characterize the generalized means to get theorems that uniquely characterize the Hill numbers.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16517</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 10:27:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16517</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Romain wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
It seems that species are always taken as predefined and that all individuals inside a species are considered identical. So that the variability “within” species is not taken into account. 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

There&#039;s nothing in the underlying mathematics that forces us to take this attitude: I&#039;m using the word &#039;species&#039; for an element of the set $latex \{1, \dots, n\}$ on which our probability distribution is given, but it doesn&#039;t need to be a set of biological species in the traditional sense.  

Even better, we could consider a set &lt;i&gt;equipped with a distance function&lt;/i&gt;, so that individuals contribute to the biodiversity more when they are more dissimilar from other individuals that are present.  This would answer your objection, at least in theory.  Incorporating a distance function requires new mathematical ideas---but luckily, these have been developed very nicely here:

&#8226; Christina Cobbold and Tom Leinster, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.maths.gla.ac.uk/~tl/mdiss.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Measuring diversity: the importance of species similarity&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;i&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/10-2402.1&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Ecology&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;93&lt;/b&gt; (2012), 477–489.

The title says &#039;species similarity&#039; but mathematically we could just as well talk about the similarity of one individual to another, and how this affects biodiversity.

If the paper looks too hard to read, start with Tom&#039;s &lt;a href=&quot;http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/measuring-biodiversity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;post on this blog!&lt;/a&gt;

In practice, however, you are right.  Researchers have found it difficult to get enough data about variability within species to include this effect when measuring biodiversity.  I&#039;ve heard people at this conference complaining about this.  There are a lot of interesting issues---mathematical, statistical and experimental---involved in trying to remedy this problem!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Romain wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>
It seems that species are always taken as predefined and that all individuals inside a species are considered identical. So that the variability “within” species is not taken into account.
</p></blockquote>
<p>There&#8217;s nothing in the underlying mathematics that forces us to take this attitude: I&#8217;m using the word &#8216;species&#8217; for an element of the set <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5C%7B1%2C+%5Cdots%2C+n%5C%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;{1, &#92;dots, n&#92;}' title='&#92;{1, &#92;dots, n&#92;}' class='latex' /> on which our probability distribution is given, but it doesn&#8217;t need to be a set of biological species in the traditional sense.  </p>
<p>Even better, we could consider a set <i>equipped with a distance function</i>, so that individuals contribute to the biodiversity more when they are more dissimilar from other individuals that are present.  This would answer your objection, at least in theory.  Incorporating a distance function requires new mathematical ideas&#8212;but luckily, these have been developed very nicely here:</p>
<p>&bull; Christina Cobbold and Tom Leinster, <a href="http://www.maths.gla.ac.uk/~tl/mdiss.pdf" rel="nofollow">Measuring diversity: the importance of species similarity</a>, <i><a href="http://www.esajournals.org/doi/abs/10.1890/10-2402.1" rel="nofollow">Ecology</a></i> <b>93</b> (2012), 477–489.</p>
<p>The title says &#8216;species similarity&#8217; but mathematically we could just as well talk about the similarity of one individual to another, and how this affects biodiversity.</p>
<p>If the paper looks too hard to read, start with Tom&#8217;s <a href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/measuring-biodiversity/" rel="nofollow">post on this blog!</a></p>
<p>In practice, however, you are right.  Researchers have found it difficult to get enough data about variability within species to include this effect when measuring biodiversity.  I&#8217;ve heard people at this conference complaining about this.  There are a lot of interesting issues&#8212;mathematical, statistical and experimental&#8212;involved in trying to remedy this problem!</p>
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		<title>By: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 5) « Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/#comment-16515</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 5) « Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 03 Jul 2012 10:05:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10481#comment-16515</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] R&#233;nyi entropies&#8212;and their exponentials, called the Hill numbers&#8212;are an important measure of biodiversity. So, I decided to spend a lot of time talking about those [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] R&eacute;nyi entropies&#8212;and their exponentials, called the Hill numbers&#8212;are an important measure of biodiversity. So, I decided to spend a lot of time talking about those [...]</p>
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