<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	xmlns:georss="http://www.georss.org/georss" xmlns:geo="http://www.w3.org/2003/01/geo/wgs84_pos#" xmlns:media="http://search.yahoo.com/mrss/"
		>
<channel>
	<title>Comments on: The Mathematics of Biodiversity (Part 8)</title>
	<atom:link href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/</link>
	<description></description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 18 May 2013 21:34:10 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>hourly</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>1</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>http://wordpress.com/</generator>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16855</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 18 Jul 2012 00:50:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16855</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hello!  The people attending the Mathematics of Biodiversity conference are very interested in two other conditions that a diversity index should satisfy, namely that it be an &#039;effective number&#039; and that it obey the &#039;replication principle&#039;.  I explained these conditions in &lt;a href=&quot;http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Part 4&lt;/a&gt;.  The Hill numbers are favored as diversity indices because they obey these conditions (as well as the ones you list), while the Shannon and R&#233;nyi entropies do not.  In &lt;a href=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/biodiversity/JostBarcelonaPublicGeneticsEcology.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;his talk&lt;/a&gt;, Lou Jost explained some serious mistakes that people have made by working with diversity indices that do not obey these additional conditions.  I also recommend these:

&#8226; Lou Jost, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.loujost.com/Statistics%20and%20Physics/Diversity%20and%20Similarity/JostEntropy%20AndDiversity.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Entropy and diversity&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;i&gt;Oikos&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;113&lt;/b&gt; (2006), 363&#8211;375.

&#8226; Tom Leinster, &lt;a href=&quot;http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/measuring-biodiversity/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Measuring biodiversity&lt;/a&gt;, &lt;i&gt;Azimuth&lt;/i&gt;, 7 November 2011.

Thanks for pointing out your papers!  I&#039;ll tell Tom and Lou about them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello!  The people attending the Mathematics of Biodiversity conference are very interested in two other conditions that a diversity index should satisfy, namely that it be an &#8216;effective number&#8217; and that it obey the &#8216;replication principle&#8217;.  I explained these conditions in <a href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/02/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-4/" rel="nofollow">Part 4</a>.  The Hill numbers are favored as diversity indices because they obey these conditions (as well as the ones you list), while the Shannon and R&eacute;nyi entropies do not.  In <a href="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/biodiversity/JostBarcelonaPublicGeneticsEcology.pdf" rel="nofollow">his talk</a>, Lou Jost explained some serious mistakes that people have made by working with diversity indices that do not obey these additional conditions.  I also recommend these:</p>
<p>&bull; Lou Jost, <a href="http://www.loujost.com/Statistics%20and%20Physics/Diversity%20and%20Similarity/JostEntropy%20AndDiversity.pdf" rel="nofollow">Entropy and diversity</a>, <i>Oikos</i> <b>113</b> (2006), 363&#8211;375.</p>
<p>&bull; Tom Leinster, <a href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2011/11/07/measuring-biodiversity/" rel="nofollow">Measuring biodiversity</a>, <i>Azimuth</i>, 7 November 2011.</p>
<p>Thanks for pointing out your papers!  I&#8217;ll tell Tom and Lou about them.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Zhiyi Zhang</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16845</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Zhiyi Zhang]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Jul 2012 18:15:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16845</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Interesting discussion! It would seem that you guys are thinking in the same general direction as I have for the past 5 years or so. After reading through the blogs, I believe some of the issues discussed here may find partial solutions in a number of papers I wrote. In particular, 

1.	Zhang, Z. and Zhou, J. (2010). Re-parameterization of multinomial distributions and diversity indices. Journal of Statistical Planning and Inference 140, pp. 1731–1738, 2010; 

2.	Zhang, Z. (2012). Entropy estimation in Turing’s perspective. Neural Computation, 24, pp. 1368—1389.

I have been thinking about the question what constitutes a biodiversity index for years and the following is a summary of what I believe currently:

1.	The word “biodiversity” clearly conveys certain intuitive meaning. However people seem very hesitant to give mathematical definitions for diversity. This puzzles me. The only reason I could see is that “diversity” may be reasonably understood in two different ways, one involving the total number of species (K) and another involving the species proportions (p_{k}). Personally I believe the latter is the real issue - not that K is not important, it is and it is well defined.

2.	The lack of (universally accepted) definition of diversity hinders the methodological advancement in issues such as statistical estimation. We need to develop (good) general definitions of diversity.     

Pertaining to 2 above, I wish to see some discussion or comments on the minimal set of conditions a “diversity index” must satisfy. I can only think of three:

1.	It must be non-negative (this could be a superficial one).

2.	It must be permutation (with respect to the letters of the alphabet) invariant.

3.	It attains its minimum (e.g. 0) when p_{k}=1 for some k.

Can you think of any other? Maybe this could be the beginning of a fruitful discussion.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Interesting discussion! It would seem that you guys are thinking in the same general direction as I have for the past 5 years or so. After reading through the blogs, I believe some of the issues discussed here may find partial solutions in a number of papers I wrote. In particular, </p>
<p>1.	Zhang, Z. and Zhou, J. (2010). Re-parameterization of multinomial distributions and diversity indices. Journal of Statistical Planning and Inference 140, pp. 1731–1738, 2010; </p>
<p>2.	Zhang, Z. (2012). Entropy estimation in Turing’s perspective. Neural Computation, 24, pp. 1368—1389.</p>
<p>I have been thinking about the question what constitutes a biodiversity index for years and the following is a summary of what I believe currently:</p>
<p>1.	The word “biodiversity” clearly conveys certain intuitive meaning. However people seem very hesitant to give mathematical definitions for diversity. This puzzles me. The only reason I could see is that “diversity” may be reasonably understood in two different ways, one involving the total number of species (K) and another involving the species proportions (p_{k}). Personally I believe the latter is the real issue &#8211; not that K is not important, it is and it is well defined.</p>
<p>2.	The lack of (universally accepted) definition of diversity hinders the methodological advancement in issues such as statistical estimation. We need to develop (good) general definitions of diversity.     </p>
<p>Pertaining to 2 above, I wish to see some discussion or comments on the minimal set of conditions a “diversity index” must satisfy. I can only think of three:</p>
<p>1.	It must be non-negative (this could be a superficial one).</p>
<p>2.	It must be permutation (with respect to the letters of the alphabet) invariant.</p>
<p>3.	It attains its minimum (e.g. 0) when p_{k}=1 for some k.</p>
<p>Can you think of any other? Maybe this could be the beginning of a fruitful discussion.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Robert Smart</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16795</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Robert Smart]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 07:07:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16795</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Coincidentally I think the Donald MacKay mentioned here is the father of Prof David MacKay, author of &quot;Sustainable Energy, without the hot air&quot;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Coincidentally I think the Donald MacKay mentioned here is the father of Prof David MacKay, author of &#8220;Sustainable Energy, without the hot air&#8221;.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16794</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 05:14:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16794</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Romain has recently edited this post to include more information, and that reference is now among those he lists!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Romain has recently edited this post to include more information, and that reference is now among those he lists!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16792</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 04:52:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16792</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hmm, that&#039;s not it, but it looks interesting.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hmm, that&#8217;s not it, but it looks interesting.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16791</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 04:50:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16791</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This whole series of posts is about the &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.crm.cat/en/Activities/Pages/ActivityDescriptions/Research-Program-on-Mathematics-of-Biodiversity.aspx&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Research Program on the Mathematics Biodiversity&lt;/a&gt;, at CRM, which lasts from June 18 to July 20, 2012.  I edited this post to clarify that this is the &#039;program&#039; I was talking about.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This whole series of posts is about the <a href="http://www.crm.cat/en/Activities/Pages/ActivityDescriptions/Research-Program-on-Mathematics-of-Biodiversity.aspx" rel="nofollow">Research Program on the Mathematics Biodiversity</a>, at CRM, which lasts from June 18 to July 20, 2012.  I edited this post to clarify that this is the &#8216;program&#8217; I was talking about.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: memming</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16783</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[memming]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 15 Jul 2012 00:41:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16783</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Also widely used entropy estimator in neuroscience is a Bayesian estimator called NSB (Nemenman-Shafee-Bialek) estimator.

I. Nemenman, F. Shafee, and W. Bialek, “Entropy and inference, revisited,” Advances in neural information processing, vol. 14, 2002.

See also:
http://www.menem.com/~ilya/wiki/index.php/Entropy_Estimation]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Also widely used entropy estimator in neuroscience is a Bayesian estimator called NSB (Nemenman-Shafee-Bialek) estimator.</p>
<p>I. Nemenman, F. Shafee, and W. Bialek, “Entropy and inference, revisited,” Advances in neural information processing, vol. 14, 2002.</p>
<p>See also:<br />
<a href="http://www.menem.com/~ilya/wiki/index.php/Entropy_Estimation" rel="nofollow">http://www.menem.com/~ilya/wiki/index.php/Entropy_Estimation</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cameron Smith</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16775</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cameron Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:51:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16775</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps this is it http://fens2012.neurosciences.asso.fr/]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps this is it <a href="http://fens2012.neurosciences.asso.fr/" rel="nofollow">http://fens2012.neurosciences.asso.fr/</a></p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: Cameron Smith</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/14/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-8/#comment-16774</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Cameron Smith]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 14 Jul 2012 16:50:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10663#comment-16774</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Perhaps I missed something in a previous post or in this one but can you provide a link to &quot;the program in Barcelona&quot;? Thanks.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Perhaps I missed something in a previous post or in this one but can you provide a link to &#8220;the program in Barcelona&#8221;? Thanks.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
</channel>
</rss>
