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	<title>Comments on: Carbon Cycle Box Models</title>
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	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/</link>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Carbon Cycles in Extraterrestrial Atmospheres &#124; Wired Cosmos</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-18898</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Carbon Cycles in Extraterrestrial Atmospheres &#124; Wired Cosmos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 27 Aug 2012 17:27:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-18898</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] Carbon Cycle Box Models [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Carbon Cycle Box Models [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Walter Blackstock</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17323</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Blackstock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jul 2012 14:44:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17323</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Please pass on my warm regards to Lisa - I&#039;m still wrestling with her &#039;producer-consumer&#039; challenge!! Being outside the paywalls, I moved into alchemy and now attempt Latin texts for exercise. The context is almost as difficult as the language!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Please pass on my warm regards to Lisa &#8211; I&#8217;m still wrestling with her &#8216;producer-consumer&#8217; challenge!! Being outside the paywalls, I moved into alchemy and now attempt Latin texts for exercise. The context is almost as difficult as the language!</p>
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		<title>By: Staffan Liljegren</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17281</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Staffan Liljegren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17281</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This was a comment on the discussion above on the air fraction of tree&#039;s carbon cycle mostly but as i also saw that the picture has a lot of other energy resources , so maybe this could interest you too Walter!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This was a comment on the discussion above on the air fraction of tree&#8217;s carbon cycle mostly but as i also saw that the picture has a lot of other energy resources , so maybe this could interest you too Walter!</p>
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		<title>By: Staffan Liljegren</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17280</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Staffan Liljegren]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 09:33:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17280</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I was writing up my notes on isotope geochemistry at the same time i was doing the first blog. So it was a conscious decision to leave details of the earth biomass part of the cycle. One of the references; 
http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Isotope+geochemistry#references_11

is available under creative commons and it has a wonderful picture of the fluxes in a tree. Here is the picture text:

&quot;Overview of processes and factors determining the isotope signature of C pools and ﬂuxes in space and time in the plant-soil-atmosphere continuum. White boxes represent pools, gray boxes show fractionation or other processes determining the C isotope composition of the involved compounds&quot;

My plan was to add this to the Isotope geochemistry page .But maybe we could mention this in ths blog or an upcoming on earth biomass part of the carbon cycle?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was writing up my notes on isotope geochemistry at the same time i was doing the first blog. So it was a conscious decision to leave details of the earth biomass part of the cycle. One of the references;<br />
<a href="http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Isotope+geochemistry#references_11" rel="nofollow">http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Isotope+geochemistry#references_11</a></p>
<p>is available under creative commons and it has a wonderful picture of the fluxes in a tree. Here is the picture text:</p>
<p>&#8220;Overview of processes and factors determining the isotope signature of C pools and ﬂuxes in space and time in the plant-soil-atmosphere continuum. White boxes represent pools, gray boxes show fractionation or other processes determining the C isotope composition of the involved compounds&#8221;</p>
<p>My plan was to add this to the Isotope geochemistry page .But maybe we could mention this in ths blog or an upcoming on earth biomass part of the carbon cycle?</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17266</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 03:30:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17266</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Hey, great to hear from you, Walter!  Lisa and I just had dinner in Fusionopolis last night---there&#039;s a new subway stop there now---and she was asking me how you&#039;re doing.  I said we&#039;re guys, we don&#039;t talk about stuff like that.  Now I&#039;ll tell her you told me some fascinating facts about nitrogen and the Haber--Bosch process.  

Nitrogen is indeed the really interesting element in this game: my own remarks dodged it and focused on C, H, and O!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, great to hear from you, Walter!  Lisa and I just had dinner in Fusionopolis last night&#8212;there&#8217;s a new subway stop there now&#8212;and she was asking me how you&#8217;re doing.  I said we&#8217;re guys, we don&#8217;t talk about stuff like that.  Now I&#8217;ll tell her you told me some fascinating facts about nitrogen and the Haber&#8211;Bosch process.  </p>
<p>Nitrogen is indeed the really interesting element in this game: my own remarks dodged it and focused on C, H, and O!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17265</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jul 2012 03:17:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17265</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If you burn wood very thoroughly so that no charcoal is left, you&#039;ll see a little pile of ash, and that contains inorganic compounds that the plant was unable to get from air and water.  So, it&#039;s pretty obvious that trees are mostly made of air and water.

But when they say 90% of the biomass comes from the atmosphere, I&#039;m a bit suspicious: does &#039;the atmosphere&#039; include water?    Trees are mostly lignin, cellulose and other carbohydrates; the carbon and oxygen can come from air, but the hydrogen has to come from water (and probably a bunch of the oxygen does too).

Of course most water used by trees comes from rain---which comes from the atmosphere.  So, they could still be correct in a technical sense.  &lt;img src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/emoticons/rolleyes.gif&quot; alt=&quot;&quot; /&gt;

]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you burn wood very thoroughly so that no charcoal is left, you&#8217;ll see a little pile of ash, and that contains inorganic compounds that the plant was unable to get from air and water.  So, it&#8217;s pretty obvious that trees are mostly made of air and water.</p>
<p>But when they say 90% of the biomass comes from the atmosphere, I&#8217;m a bit suspicious: does &#8216;the atmosphere&#8217; include water?    Trees are mostly lignin, cellulose and other carbohydrates; the carbon and oxygen can come from air, but the hydrogen has to come from water (and probably a bunch of the oxygen does too).</p>
<p>Of course most water used by trees comes from rain&#8212;which comes from the atmosphere.  So, they could still be correct in a technical sense.  <img src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/emoticons/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /></p>
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		<title>By: Walter Blackstock</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17252</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Blackstock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:34:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17252</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Jan Baptist van Helmont (1579-1644) &quot;performed an experiment to determine where plants get their mass. He grew a willow tree and measured the amount of soil, the weight of the tree and the water he added. After five years the plant had gained about 164 lbs (74 kg). Since the amount of soil was basically the same as it had been when he started his experiment, he deduced that the tree&#039;s weight gain had come from water. Since it had received nothing but water and the soil weighed practically the same as at the beginning, he argued that the increased weight of wood, bark and roots had been formed from water alone. However, this &quot;deduction&quot; is incomplete, as a large proportion of the mass of the tree comes from atmospheric carbon dioxide, which, in conjunction with water, is turned into carbohydrates via photosynthesis.&quot; (Wikipedia, van Helmont)

At the end of the 19th Century, the argument shifted to where do plants get their nitrogen? Crop rotation and legumes provided some, but guano was imported in vast amounts from South America for use as fertiliser. Using sewage on the land, as proposed by Liebig, provided only low levels of nitrogen and Crookes gave a famous British Association lecture warning of a food crisis ahead. The Times carried a spirited correspondence by Liebig and others on the merits of using sewage from London outfalls on the land. In reality sewage has less value than might be expected. The outbreak of the European War (WW1) in 1914 led to a blockade of sea routes which hastened German industrial production of ammonia in by the Haber-Bosch process.

Today 40-60 per cent of the nitrogen in the human body has its origin in synthetic ammonia from the Haber-Bosch process. (I&#039;d confirm the Nature 2004 reference but it&#039;s paywalled). I like to tell my more green friends they are in part a product of high-pressure chemical engineering :)

Apologies Staffan, a bit off-topic from Box Models ...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Jan Baptist van Helmont (1579-1644) &#8220;performed an experiment to determine where plants get their mass. He grew a willow tree and measured the amount of soil, the weight of the tree and the water he added. After five years the plant had gained about 164 lbs (74 kg). Since the amount of soil was basically the same as it had been when he started his experiment, he deduced that the tree&#8217;s weight gain had come from water. Since it had received nothing but water and the soil weighed practically the same as at the beginning, he argued that the increased weight of wood, bark and roots had been formed from water alone. However, this &#8220;deduction&#8221; is incomplete, as a large proportion of the mass of the tree comes from atmospheric carbon dioxide, which, in conjunction with water, is turned into carbohydrates via photosynthesis.&#8221; (Wikipedia, van Helmont)</p>
<p>At the end of the 19th Century, the argument shifted to where do plants get their nitrogen? Crop rotation and legumes provided some, but guano was imported in vast amounts from South America for use as fertiliser. Using sewage on the land, as proposed by Liebig, provided only low levels of nitrogen and Crookes gave a famous British Association lecture warning of a food crisis ahead. The Times carried a spirited correspondence by Liebig and others on the merits of using sewage from London outfalls on the land. In reality sewage has less value than might be expected. The outbreak of the European War (WW1) in 1914 led to a blockade of sea routes which hastened German industrial production of ammonia in by the Haber-Bosch process.</p>
<p>Today 40-60 per cent of the nitrogen in the human body has its origin in synthetic ammonia from the Haber-Bosch process. (I&#8217;d confirm the Nature 2004 reference but it&#8217;s paywalled). I like to tell my more green friends they are in part a product of high-pressure chemical engineering :)</p>
<p>Apologies Staffan, a bit off-topic from Box Models &#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Urban</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17226</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Urban]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 13:29:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17226</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[The Wikipedia entry on &#039;tree&#039; says over 90% of a tree&#039;s biomass comes from the atmosphere.  I recall Kirk Johnson also mentioning a figure around 90%.

I don&#039;t think you can infer much from the need for nutrients or fertilizers.  They be necessary to participate in some critical reactions, but that doesn&#039;t mean that they&#039;re a large fraction of the mass.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The Wikipedia entry on &#8216;tree&#8217; says over 90% of a tree&#8217;s biomass comes from the atmosphere.  I recall Kirk Johnson also mentioning a figure around 90%.</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think you can infer much from the need for nutrients or fertilizers.  They be necessary to participate in some critical reactions, but that doesn&#8217;t mean that they&#8217;re a large fraction of the mass.</p>
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		<title>By: Giampiero Campa</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17220</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Giampiero Campa]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 10:10:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17220</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Very interesting, well i didn&#039;t know until now. I wonder if we can put a numeric estimate on that &quot;most of the mass&quot;, in percent terms (btw your link doesn&#039;t work).

The fact that fertilizers are needed and that eroded soil has a reduced crop yield seem to imply that a considerable amount of mass does transition from the soil to the plants.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Very interesting, well i didn&#8217;t know until now. I wonder if we can put a numeric estimate on that &#8220;most of the mass&#8221;, in percent terms (btw your link doesn&#8217;t work).</p>
<p>The fact that fertilizers are needed and that eroded soil has a reduced crop yield seem to imply that a considerable amount of mass does transition from the soil to the plants.</p>
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		<title>By: Nathan Urban</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/24/carbon-cycle-box-models/#comment-17209</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Urban]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 27 Jul 2012 01:56:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=10774#comment-17209</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t know that most of the mass of plants came from air either, until I attended a talk by paleobotanist Kirk Johnson (curator of the Denver Museum of Natural History).  He worked this concept into the title of his children&#039;s book &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.amazon.com/Gas-Trees-Car-Turds-Warming/dp/155591666X&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Gas Trees and Car Turds: Kids&#039; Guide to the Roots of Global Warming&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t know that most of the mass of plants came from air either, until I attended a talk by paleobotanist Kirk Johnson (curator of the Denver Museum of Natural History).  He worked this concept into the title of his children&#8217;s book <a href="http://www.amazon.com/Gas-Trees-Car-Turds-Warming/dp/155591666X" rel="nofollow">Gas Trees and Car Turds: Kids&#8217; Guide to the Roots of Global Warming</a>.</p>
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