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	<title>Comments on: The Noisy Channel Coding Theorem</title>
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	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/</link>
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	<item>
		<title>By: arch1</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17397</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arch1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 14:29:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17397</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks for the extra context John.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for the extra context John.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Florifulgurator</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17378</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Florifulgurator]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 08:55:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17378</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Sounds like yummy breakfast. But no Cramer large deviation stuff? Last century I ran a seminar on Cramer&#039;s theorem, iterated logarithm, arcsin law etc. Now suddenly it seems Shannon is yummy, too.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sounds like yummy breakfast. But no Cramer large deviation stuff? Last century I ran a seminar on Cramer&#8217;s theorem, iterated logarithm, arcsin law etc. Now suddenly it seems Shannon is yummy, too.</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17372</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 04:45:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17372</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[That&#039;s nice!  Thanks!  

I hope I have enough energy to say more about the asymptotic equipartition property.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s nice!  Thanks!  </p>
<p>I hope I have enough energy to say more about the asymptotic equipartition property.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17371</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 04:31:11 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17371</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Let&#039;s keep talking about all this stuff.

By the way, Jamie, speaking of error correction...

Everyone please remember: on all Wordpress blogs, LaTeX is done like this:

&#036;latex  E = mc^2$

with the word &#039;latex&#039; directly following the first dollar sign, no space.  Double dollar signs don&#039;t work here.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Let&#8217;s keep talking about all this stuff.</p>
<p>By the way, Jamie, speaking of error correction&#8230;</p>
<p>Everyone please remember: on all WordPress blogs, LaTeX is done like this:</p>
<p>&#036;latex  E = mc^2$</p>
<p>with the word &#8216;latex&#8217; directly following the first dollar sign, no space.  Double dollar signs don&#8217;t work here.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17370</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 03:36:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17370</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I didn&#039;t mean to say the  asymptotic equipartition property is extremely hard.  However, the rest of the proof looks easy in comparison, so one is inclined to look at this part and say &quot;yuck, that&#039;s some technical fact I&#039;d rather take on faith&quot;.   It seems like the pit in the peach.   But I was trying to convince everyone that unlike the pit in the peach, it&#039;s highly nutritious, and tasty in its own way.

I stated a watered-down version of the asymptotic equipartition theorem: just for purposes of exposition, I assumed that each letter in the string was drawn independently from the same probability distribution on letters.  In other words, I was assuming that they&#039;re &#039;independent identically distributed&#039; random variables.  This is clearly too restrictive---it sure ain&#039;t true for English text!

The statement and proof gets a bit harder when we do the full-fledged thing: you can see a proof &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_equipartition_property#AEP_for_discrete-time_i.i.d._sources&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for the i.i.d. case and &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_equipartition_property#AEP_for_discrete-time_finite-valued_stationary_ergodic_sources&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt; for the more general case.  The more general case uses Lévy&#039;s martingale convergence theorem,  Markov&#039;s inequality and Borel-Cantelli lemma.  For some people that would be very scary, while others eat such stuff for breakfast.

But anyway, regardless of whether the proof is hard, the result seems both interesting and highly believable: not shocking.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I didn&#8217;t mean to say the  asymptotic equipartition property is extremely hard.  However, the rest of the proof looks easy in comparison, so one is inclined to look at this part and say &#8220;yuck, that&#8217;s some technical fact I&#8217;d rather take on faith&#8221;.   It seems like the pit in the peach.   But I was trying to convince everyone that unlike the pit in the peach, it&#8217;s highly nutritious, and tasty in its own way.</p>
<p>I stated a watered-down version of the asymptotic equipartition theorem: just for purposes of exposition, I assumed that each letter in the string was drawn independently from the same probability distribution on letters.  In other words, I was assuming that they&#8217;re &#8216;independent identically distributed&#8217; random variables.  This is clearly too restrictive&#8212;it sure ain&#8217;t true for English text!</p>
<p>The statement and proof gets a bit harder when we do the full-fledged thing: you can see a proof <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_equipartition_property#AEP_for_discrete-time_i.i.d._sources" rel="nofollow">here</a> for the i.i.d. case and <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asymptotic_equipartition_property#AEP_for_discrete-time_finite-valued_stationary_ergodic_sources" rel="nofollow">here</a> for the more general case.  The more general case uses Lévy&#8217;s martingale convergence theorem,  Markov&#8217;s inequality and Borel-Cantelli lemma.  For some people that would be very scary, while others eat such stuff for breakfast.</p>
<p>But anyway, regardless of whether the proof is hard, the result seems both interesting and highly believable: not shocking.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: blake561able</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17369</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[blake561able]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 Jul 2012 01:00:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17369</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[It is interesting that Weyl was Shannon&#039;s adviser at IAS. The communication between those two must have come close to exceeding these limits on information!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting that Weyl was Shannon&#8217;s adviser at IAS. The communication between those two must have come close to exceeding these limits on information!</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: arch1</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17366</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arch1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 22:10:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17366</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[John,

My quick skim of your summary of the hard lemma left me wondering why it is a hard lemma*.  Isn&#039;t it just a baby step away from the fact that as n-&gt; infinity, samples of size n look more and more like the underlying distribution from which they are drawn?

*That in itself is progress, since my quick skim of Wikipedia&#039;s summary of the hard lemma left me almost clueless as to the content of the hard lemma (it struck me as very vague:-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>John,</p>
<p>My quick skim of your summary of the hard lemma left me wondering why it is a hard lemma*.  Isn&#8217;t it just a baby step away from the fact that as n-&gt; infinity, samples of size n look more and more like the underlying distribution from which they are drawn?</p>
<p>*That in itself is progress, since my quick skim of Wikipedia&#8217;s summary of the hard lemma left me almost clueless as to the content of the hard lemma (it struck me as very vague:-)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
	</item>
	<item>
		<title>By: The link between information and entropy on Azimuth &#124; The Finch and Pea</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17354</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[The link between information and entropy on Azimuth &#124; The Finch and Pea]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17354</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[[...] So I’m boning up on the subject by reading Khinchin’s great classic, &lt;i&gt;Mathematical Foundations of Information Theory&lt;/i&gt;. In the future I’ll share some findings here, but in the mean time, follow the link to Azimuth and read Baez’s great discussion of the Noisy Channel Coding Theorem. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] So I’m boning up on the subject by reading Khinchin’s great classic, <i>Mathematical Foundations of Information Theory</i>. In the future I’ll share some findings here, but in the mean time, follow the link to Azimuth and read Baez’s great discussion of the Noisy Channel Coding Theorem. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: romain</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17353</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[romain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 16:08:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17353</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Noteworthy, the asymptotic equipartition property (AEP) shows that the plug-in estimate of entropy converges to the true entropy in the large sampling limit.

This is interesting with respect to the post &lt;a href=&quot;https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-7/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;``Mathematics of biodiversity 7&#039;&#039;&lt;/a&gt; to understand the whole concept of bias correction of entropy estimates in the case of a limited sample.

Consider the quantity 

$latex \displaystyle{H_n=-\frac{1}{n} \log p(X_{i_j}^n)}$

where $latex X_{i_j}^n$ is a sequence of $latex n$ letters $latex X_i$ occurring with probabilities $latex p_i$. And let&#039;s assume there are $latex m$ different letters..

In the case where the letters are i.i.d., then 

$latex \displaystyle{p(X_{i_j}^n)=\prod_j^n p(X_{i_j})}$

Now, the same $latex X_i$ may appear many times, say $latex n_i$, so this formula can be rewritten 

$latex \displaystyle{p(X_i^n)=\prod_i^m p(X_i)^{n_i}}$
 
so that:

$latex \displaystyle{H_n=-\sum_i^m \frac{n_i}{n} \log p(X_i)}$

When $latex N$ is large, then 

$latex \displaystyle{\frac{n_i}{n} \rightarrow p(X_i)}$

QED.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Noteworthy, the asymptotic equipartition property (AEP) shows that the plug-in estimate of entropy converges to the true entropy in the large sampling limit.</p>
<p>This is interesting with respect to the post <a href="https://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/12/the-mathematics-of-biodiversity-part-7/" rel="nofollow">&#8220;Mathematics of biodiversity 7&#8221;</a> to understand the whole concept of bias correction of entropy estimates in the case of a limited sample.</p>
<p>Consider the quantity </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cdisplaystyle%7BH_n%3D-%5Cfrac%7B1%7D%7Bn%7D+%5Clog+p%28X_%7Bi_j%7D%5En%29%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;displaystyle{H_n=-&#92;frac{1}{n} &#92;log p(X_{i_j}^n)}' title='&#92;displaystyle{H_n=-&#92;frac{1}{n} &#92;log p(X_{i_j}^n)}' class='latex' /></p>
<p>where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X_%7Bi_j%7D%5En&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='X_{i_j}^n' title='X_{i_j}^n' class='latex' /> is a sequence of <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n' title='n' class='latex' /> letters <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='X_i' title='X_i' class='latex' /> occurring with probabilities <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=p_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='p_i' title='p_i' class='latex' />. And let&#8217;s assume there are <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=m&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='m' title='m' class='latex' /> different letters..</p>
<p>In the case where the letters are i.i.d., then </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cdisplaystyle%7Bp%28X_%7Bi_j%7D%5En%29%3D%5Cprod_j%5En+p%28X_%7Bi_j%7D%29%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;displaystyle{p(X_{i_j}^n)=&#92;prod_j^n p(X_{i_j})}' title='&#92;displaystyle{p(X_{i_j}^n)=&#92;prod_j^n p(X_{i_j})}' class='latex' /></p>
<p>Now, the same <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='X_i' title='X_i' class='latex' /> may appear many times, say <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=n_i&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='n_i' title='n_i' class='latex' />, so this formula can be rewritten </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cdisplaystyle%7Bp%28X_i%5En%29%3D%5Cprod_i%5Em+p%28X_i%29%5E%7Bn_i%7D%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;displaystyle{p(X_i^n)=&#92;prod_i^m p(X_i)^{n_i}}' title='&#92;displaystyle{p(X_i^n)=&#92;prod_i^m p(X_i)^{n_i}}' class='latex' /></p>
<p>so that:</p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cdisplaystyle%7BH_n%3D-%5Csum_i%5Em+%5Cfrac%7Bn_i%7D%7Bn%7D+%5Clog+p%28X_i%29%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;displaystyle{H_n=-&#92;sum_i^m &#92;frac{n_i}{n} &#92;log p(X_i)}' title='&#92;displaystyle{H_n=-&#92;sum_i^m &#92;frac{n_i}{n} &#92;log p(X_i)}' class='latex' /></p>
<p>When <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=N&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='N' title='N' class='latex' /> is large, then </p>
<p><img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%5Cdisplaystyle%7B%5Cfrac%7Bn_i%7D%7Bn%7D+%5Crightarrow+p%28X_i%29%7D&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='&#92;displaystyle{&#92;frac{n_i}{n} &#92;rightarrow p(X_i)}' title='&#92;displaystyle{&#92;frac{n_i}{n} &#92;rightarrow p(X_i)}' class='latex' /></p>
<p>QED.</p>
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		<title>By: Jamie Vicary</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/28/the-noisy-channel-coding-theorem/#comment-17351</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Jamie Vicary]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 30 Jul 2012 15:13:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11087#comment-17351</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[In quantum error correction, people often consider two primary types of errors: bit flips, where $latex &#124; 0 \rangle$ and $latex &#124; 1 \rangle$ switch; and sign flips, where $latex &#124; 0 \rangle$ is unchanged but $latex &#124; 1 \rangle$ is multiplied by $latex {-}1$. These are conveniently represented by the Pauli $latex X$ and $latex Z$ matrices. There are results saying that as long as you can correct adequately for these discrete sorts of errors, you can correct for all errors in some sense.

I wonder if there are classical analogues of these sorts of result.

Tobias, I agree, it&#039;s really exciting to think about how all this stuff generalizes to topologically interesting situations. It&#039;s entrancing to see linear algebra coming into play in the butterfly network.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In quantum error correction, people often consider two primary types of errors: bit flips, where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C+0+%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='| 0 &#92;rangle' title='| 0 &#92;rangle' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C+1+%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='| 1 &#92;rangle' title='| 1 &#92;rangle' class='latex' /> switch; and sign flips, where <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C+0+%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='| 0 &#92;rangle' title='| 0 &#92;rangle' class='latex' /> is unchanged but <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7C+1+%5Crangle&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='| 1 &#92;rangle' title='| 1 &#92;rangle' class='latex' /> is multiplied by <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=%7B-%7D1&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='{-}1' title='{-}1' class='latex' />. These are conveniently represented by the Pauli <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=X&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='X' title='X' class='latex' /> and <img src='http://s0.wp.com/latex.php?latex=Z&amp;bg=ffffff&amp;fg=333333&amp;s=0' alt='Z' title='Z' class='latex' /> matrices. There are results saying that as long as you can correct adequately for these discrete sorts of errors, you can correct for all errors in some sense.</p>
<p>I wonder if there are classical analogues of these sorts of result.</p>
<p>Tobias, I agree, it&#8217;s really exciting to think about how all this stuff generalizes to topologically interesting situations. It&#8217;s entrancing to see linear algebra coming into play in the butterfly network.</p>
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