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	<title>Comments on: Increasing the Signal-to-Noise Ratio With More Noise</title>
	<atom:link href="http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/</link>
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	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 21 May 2013 07:24:32 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: Mathematics of the Environment (Part 7) « Azimuth</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-21903</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mathematics of the Environment (Part 7) « Azimuth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Nov 2012 03:01:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-21903</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[This week, we’ll see how &lt;i&gt;noise&lt;/i&gt; affects this simple climate model. We’ll borrow lots of material from here: 

&#8226; Glyn Adgie and Tim van Beek, Increasing the signal-to-noise ratio with more noise. [...]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This week, we’ll see how <i>noise</i> affects this simple climate model. We’ll borrow lots of material from here: </p>
<p>&bull; Glyn Adgie and Tim van Beek, Increasing the signal-to-noise ratio with more noise. [...]</p>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Nathan Urban</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17514</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Nathan Urban]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 13:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17514</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://xkcd.com/221/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;xkcd&lt;/a&gt;:

[sourcecode language=&quot;cpp&quot;]
int getRandomNumber()
{
     return 4;  // chosen by fair dice roll.
                    // guaranteed to be random.
}
[/sourcecode]]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://xkcd.com/221/" rel="nofollow">xkcd</a>:</p>
<pre class="brush: cpp; title: ; notranslate">
int getRandomNumber()
{
     return 4;  // chosen by fair dice roll.
                    // guaranteed to be random.
}
</pre>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Walter Blackstock</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17506</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Walter Blackstock]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 06:46:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17506</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[&quot;The &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.entropykey.co.uk/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Entropy Key&lt;/a&gt; is a small, unobtrusive and easily installed USB stick that generates high-quality random numbers, or entropy, which can improve the performance, security and reliability of servers. It can also be used with scientific, gambling and lottery applications, or anywhere where good random numbers are needed.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;The <a href="http://www.entropykey.co.uk/" rel="nofollow">Entropy Key</a> is a small, unobtrusive and easily installed USB stick that generates high-quality random numbers, or entropy, which can improve the performance, security and reliability of servers. It can also be used with scientific, gambling and lottery applications, or anywhere where good random numbers are needed.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Tim van Beek</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17505</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim van Beek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 06:25:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17505</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[When I asked about this during my time at the University of Heidelberg I was told that physical systems usually have long time correlations too, which usually makes them as bad as random number generators as deterministic algorithms. 

But the best quote I know in this context is from numerical recipes (an author cites a system administrator from memory): 

&quot;We guarantee that each number is random individually, but we don’t guarantee that more than one of them is random.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When I asked about this during my time at the University of Heidelberg I was told that physical systems usually have long time correlations too, which usually makes them as bad as random number generators as deterministic algorithms. </p>
<p>But the best quote I know in this context is from numerical recipes (an author cites a system administrator from memory): </p>
<p>&#8220;We guarantee that each number is random individually, but we don’t guarantee that more than one of them is random.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17500</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 02:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17500</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Over on Google+, Richard Younger wrote:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
Electrical Engineers designing analog to digital converters have known about this effect for decades. They call it dither. It&#039;s random noise  that improves the accuracy of finite-bucket assignment of a sampled analog signal to a digital value. This classic paper from 1964 shows that the optimum is white noise with RMS 1/3 of the difference between the smallest assignment values (least significant bit or LSB):

&#8226; L. Schuchman, Dither signals and their effect on quantization noise, &lt;i&gt;IEEE Trans. Commun. Technol.&lt;/i&gt; (1964), vol. COM-12, 162 -165.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I replied:

&lt;blockquote&gt;
I think dither is a bit different from stochastic resonance: as the blog entry explains, stochastic resonance happens when you have a dynamical system with two stable equilibria and a small oscillatory force that would push the system back and forth between these equilibria if it were big enough.  Then adding noise boosts the chance that the system actually makes it over the hump, especially if the noise has some power at the same frequency as the oscillatory force.

However, it&#039;s cool that dither is &lt;i&gt;yet another&lt;/i&gt; way that noise can help.    Thanks! - I&#039;ll post a comment about this on my blog.﻿  I wonder if there&#039;s some precise mathematical relationship.
&lt;/blockquote&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Over on Google+, Richard Younger wrote:</p>
<blockquote><p>
Electrical Engineers designing analog to digital converters have known about this effect for decades. They call it dither. It&#8217;s random noise  that improves the accuracy of finite-bucket assignment of a sampled analog signal to a digital value. This classic paper from 1964 shows that the optimum is white noise with RMS 1/3 of the difference between the smallest assignment values (least significant bit or LSB):</p>
<p>&bull; L. Schuchman, Dither signals and their effect on quantization noise, <i>IEEE Trans. Commun. Technol.</i> (1964), vol. COM-12, 162 -165.
</p></blockquote>
<p>I replied:</p>
<blockquote><p>
I think dither is a bit different from stochastic resonance: as the blog entry explains, stochastic resonance happens when you have a dynamical system with two stable equilibria and a small oscillatory force that would push the system back and forth between these equilibria if it were big enough.  Then adding noise boosts the chance that the system actually makes it over the hump, especially if the noise has some power at the same frequency as the oscillatory force.</p>
<p>However, it&#8217;s cool that dither is <i>yet another</i> way that noise can help.    Thanks! &#8211; I&#8217;ll post a comment about this on my blog.﻿  I wonder if there&#8217;s some precise mathematical relationship.
</p></blockquote>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17499</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Aug 2012 02:24:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17499</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[These days you can try to avoid sin by &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.randomnumbers.info/content/Download.htm&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;downloading random numbers generated using quantum mechanics&lt;/a&gt; by the  University of Geneva and the company Id Quantique.  Here are some:

&lt;blockquote&gt;1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0  1 
&lt;/blockquote&gt;

They look good, don&#039;t they?  But watch out: I deliberately put one in myself, which was not generated randomly!

Or, if you need &lt;i&gt;lots&lt;/i&gt; of random numbers, you can buy their product &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.idquantique.com/true-random-number-generator/products-overview.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Quantis&lt;/a&gt;, which produces up to 16 megabits per second.  You can read about it here:

&#8226; &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.idquantique.com/images/stories/PDF/quantis-random-generator/quantis-whitepaper.pdf&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Random number generation using quantum physics&lt;/a&gt;, Id Quantique White Paper, version 3.0, April 2010.

It uses a half-silvered mirror to split a beam of light, and single-photon detectors that can tell which way each photon went.  

But there&#039;s a catch: while ideally 50% of the photons would go through and 50% would get reflected, Id Quantique can only guarantee that the number is somewhere between 45% and 55%.  So, they need to use an algorithm called an &#039;unbiasing technique&#039; to take the somewhat random but still biased string of bits and try to purify it to maximal randomness.  

This problem shows up with any physical method of generating random digits.  The first unbiasing technique was developed by von Neumann:

&#8226; John von Neumann, Various techniques used in connection with random digits, &lt;i&gt;Applied Mathematics Series&lt;/i&gt; &lt;b&gt;12&lt;/b&gt; (1951), 36-38.

The output of the unbiasing technique needs to have fewer bits (per second) than the input.  But even apart from this, I suspect that all the difficulties in defining a random sequence produced using an algorithm---the &quot;sin&quot; von Neumann was talking about---reappear when trying to define what counts as a valid unbiasing technique, &lt;i&gt;unless&lt;/i&gt; for some reason you know the input string is identically independently distributed... or something like that: something you probably can&#039;t actually know about a realistic, imperfect physical system.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>These days you can try to avoid sin by <a href="http://www.randomnumbers.info/content/Download.htm" rel="nofollow">downloading random numbers generated using quantum mechanics</a> by the  University of Geneva and the company Id Quantique.  Here are some:</p>
<blockquote><p>1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 1 0 1 0 0 1 1 0 1 1 0 1 0 0 0 1 0 1 0 1 1 0  1
</p></blockquote>
<p>They look good, don&#8217;t they?  But watch out: I deliberately put one in myself, which was not generated randomly!</p>
<p>Or, if you need <i>lots</i> of random numbers, you can buy their product <a href="http://www.idquantique.com/true-random-number-generator/products-overview.html" rel="nofollow">Quantis</a>, which produces up to 16 megabits per second.  You can read about it here:</p>
<p>&bull; <a href="http://www.idquantique.com/images/stories/PDF/quantis-random-generator/quantis-whitepaper.pdf" rel="nofollow">Random number generation using quantum physics</a>, Id Quantique White Paper, version 3.0, April 2010.</p>
<p>It uses a half-silvered mirror to split a beam of light, and single-photon detectors that can tell which way each photon went.  </p>
<p>But there&#8217;s a catch: while ideally 50% of the photons would go through and 50% would get reflected, Id Quantique can only guarantee that the number is somewhere between 45% and 55%.  So, they need to use an algorithm called an &#8216;unbiasing technique&#8217; to take the somewhat random but still biased string of bits and try to purify it to maximal randomness.  </p>
<p>This problem shows up with any physical method of generating random digits.  The first unbiasing technique was developed by von Neumann:</p>
<p>&bull; John von Neumann, Various techniques used in connection with random digits, <i>Applied Mathematics Series</i> <b>12</b> (1951), 36-38.</p>
<p>The output of the unbiasing technique needs to have fewer bits (per second) than the input.  But even apart from this, I suspect that all the difficulties in defining a random sequence produced using an algorithm&#8212;the &#8220;sin&#8221; von Neumann was talking about&#8212;reappear when trying to define what counts as a valid unbiasing technique, <i>unless</i> for some reason you know the input string is identically independently distributed&#8230; or something like that: something you probably can&#8217;t actually know about a realistic, imperfect physical system.</p>
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		<title>By: jimstuttard</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17489</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[jimstuttard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 19:05:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17489</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I don&#039;t know who said &quot;If you want to do physics on a computer don&#039;t use numbers&quot;?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I don&#8217;t know who said &#8220;If you want to do physics on a computer don&#8217;t use numbers&#8221;?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Mike Stay</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17487</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mike Stay]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 16:49:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17487</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Von Neumann said, &quot;Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin.&quot;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Von Neumann said, &#8220;Anyone who considers arithmetical methods of producing random digits is, of course, in a state of sin.&#8221;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: arch1</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17483</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[arch1]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 15:53:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17483</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks John and Tim for the refs.  Apologies for my unclear suggestion  - I was envisioning a simple web app (or, for vision, perhaps just a .ppt slide) which would drive your point home by allowing your audience to experience the effects of SR on their own hearing or vision.  I see now that this has been done (e.g. the Arc de Triomphe examples in John&#039;s wikipedia reference).

It is striking that in the cricket&#039;s cercal mechanoreceptors (at least at the level of single neurons) the optimal signal-to-noise ratio was achieved with a noise intensity 25x that of the signal.

Even more intriguing to me was an abstract referenced from Tim’s second URL: “Ubiquitous crossmodal Stochastic Resonance in humans: auditory noise facilitates tactile, visual and proprioceptive sensations.”   I realize we are now far afield from climate physics but the apparent pervasiveness of this phenomenon is eye opening.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks John and Tim for the refs.  Apologies for my unclear suggestion  &#8211; I was envisioning a simple web app (or, for vision, perhaps just a .ppt slide) which would drive your point home by allowing your audience to experience the effects of SR on their own hearing or vision.  I see now that this has been done (e.g. the Arc de Triomphe examples in John&#8217;s wikipedia reference).</p>
<p>It is striking that in the cricket&#8217;s cercal mechanoreceptors (at least at the level of single neurons) the optimal signal-to-noise ratio was achieved with a noise intensity 25x that of the signal.</p>
<p>Even more intriguing to me was an abstract referenced from Tim’s second URL: “Ubiquitous crossmodal Stochastic Resonance in humans: auditory noise facilitates tactile, visual and proprioceptive sensations.”   I realize we are now far afield from climate physics but the apparent pervasiveness of this phenomenon is eye opening.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Tim van Beek</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/07/30/increasing-the-signal-to-noise-ratio-with-more-noise/#comment-17472</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tim van Beek]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Aug 2012 07:16:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11212#comment-17472</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[While I don&#039;t know what George Marsaglia thought about random number generators, since I never got to know him, I wrote a little bit about this on the Azimuth project on the page &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Random+number+generator&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;random number generator&lt;/a&gt;:

From a practical point of view a random number generator is good if it is random enough for the application that consumes the numbers it produces, in the sense that the application does not produce any artifacts that depend on the generator used. Since no random number generator is truly random, there is no objective mathematical criterion to classify generators; in practice, users have specified a list of statistical tests that a “good” generator should pass - on the average - while “bad” generators do not - on the average (see the references for details).

From a pure mathematical point of view this means that we know some ways in which the “bad” generators fail, while we did not figure out how to unmask the “good” ones. So the bad ones are actually those generators that we happen to know more about!]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>While I don&#8217;t know what George Marsaglia thought about random number generators, since I never got to know him, I wrote a little bit about this on the Azimuth project on the page <a href="http://www.azimuthproject.org/azimuth/show/Random+number+generator" rel="nofollow">random number generator</a>:</p>
<p>From a practical point of view a random number generator is good if it is random enough for the application that consumes the numbers it produces, in the sense that the application does not produce any artifacts that depend on the generator used. Since no random number generator is truly random, there is no objective mathematical criterion to classify generators; in practice, users have specified a list of statistical tests that a “good” generator should pass &#8211; on the average &#8211; while “bad” generators do not &#8211; on the average (see the references for details).</p>
<p>From a pure mathematical point of view this means that we know some ways in which the “bad” generators fail, while we did not figure out how to unmask the “good” ones. So the bad ones are actually those generators that we happen to know more about!</p>
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