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	<title>Comments on: Symmetry and the Fourth Dimension (Part 7)</title>
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	<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/</link>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phil Gossett</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19754</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Gossett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:24:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19754</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Actually, I think you can read this straight off your Coxeter complex pictures. In particular, that the pictures for duals are always the same...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Actually, I think you can read this straight off your Coxeter complex pictures. In particular, that the pictures for duals are always the same&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phil Gossett</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19753</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Gossett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 05:02:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19753</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[I think I got that somewhat wrong.

It&#039;s a &quot;plane of symmetry&quot; which connects each vertex with the midpoint of the opposite side (in the odd p case). Vertices are actually opposite other vertices...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think I got that somewhat wrong.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a &#8220;plane of symmetry&#8221; which connects each vertex with the midpoint of the opposite side (in the odd p case). Vertices are actually opposite other vertices&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Phil Gossett</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19752</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Gossett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 11 Sep 2012 04:30:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19752</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A bit sketchy, but...

From the Wikipedia article for &quot;Quasiregular polyhedron&quot;, these polyhedra (which must be edge-transitive) have a Schlafli symbol of {p over q}, with p=3, q=3,4,5 (octahedron (really &quot;tetratetrahedron&quot;), cuboctahedron and icosidodecahedron, respectively).

From Coxeter, &quot;Regular Polytopes&quot;, page 65 (Dover), for a quasi-regular polyhedron with a Schlafli symbol of {p over q} with odd p, each vertex must be opposite to the midpoint of an edge. Hence, you get a great circle. Which by edge-transitivity implies every edge is on a great circle. (Basically, the odd p thing excludes cases like the &quot;zig-zag equator&quot; of a cube with the &quot;poles&quot; at two opposite vertices.)

So the only thing remaining is to show that these &quot;halfway through&quot; polyhedra must be quasiregular. Or equivalently, edge-transitive.

And I think you can get there by noting that these polyhedra are each (by construction) the common core of a dual pair of regular polyhedra.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A bit sketchy, but&#8230;</p>
<p>From the Wikipedia article for &#8220;Quasiregular polyhedron&#8221;, these polyhedra (which must be edge-transitive) have a Schlafli symbol of {p over q}, with p=3, q=3,4,5 (octahedron (really &#8220;tetratetrahedron&#8221;), cuboctahedron and icosidodecahedron, respectively).</p>
<p>From Coxeter, &#8220;Regular Polytopes&#8221;, page 65 (Dover), for a quasi-regular polyhedron with a Schlafli symbol of {p over q} with odd p, each vertex must be opposite to the midpoint of an edge. Hence, you get a great circle. Which by edge-transitivity implies every edge is on a great circle. (Basically, the odd p thing excludes cases like the &#8220;zig-zag equator&#8221; of a cube with the &#8220;poles&#8221; at two opposite vertices.)</p>
<p>So the only thing remaining is to show that these &#8220;halfway through&#8221; polyhedra must be quasiregular. Or equivalently, edge-transitive.</p>
<p>And I think you can get there by noting that these polyhedra are each (by construction) the common core of a dual pair of regular polyhedra.</p>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19708</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:41:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19708</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Thanks!  I&#039;ll fix the typo... but more importantly, I think you&#039;ve made some real progress here on Puzzle 1.  Somehow this symmetry should arise from interpolating between a regular polyhedron and its dual.  I don&#039;t have time to think about this right now... maybe someone else can give it a try?

Another specially nice feature of these &#039;halfway through&#039; polytopes is that &#039;every edge looks alike&#039;:

&lt;div align=&quot;center&quot;&gt;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octahedron&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img width=&quot;100&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-rectified_tetrahedron.png&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuboctahedron&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img width=&quot;100&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-cuboctahedron.png&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&#160;&#160;&#160;&#160;&lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosidodecahedron&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;&lt;img width=&quot;100&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-icosidodecahedron.png&quot; /&gt;&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

In other words, their symmetry group acts transitively on their set of edges.  This is not true for any of other semiregular polyhedra in the tables above (except, of course, the regular ones):

&lt;div align=&quot;center&quot;&gt;

&lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_tetrahedron.png&quot; /&gt;  

&lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-bitruncated_tetrahedron.png&quot; /&gt;  

 &lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_cube.png&quot; /&gt;

&lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_octahedron.png&quot; /&gt;  

 &lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_dodecahedron.png&quot; /&gt; 

&lt;img width=&quot;140&quot; src=&quot;http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_icosahedron.png&quot; /&gt;  



&lt;/div&gt;]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks!  I&#8217;ll fix the typo&#8230; but more importantly, I think you&#8217;ve made some real progress here on Puzzle 1.  Somehow this symmetry should arise from interpolating between a regular polyhedron and its dual.  I don&#8217;t have time to think about this right now&#8230; maybe someone else can give it a try?</p>
<p>Another specially nice feature of these &#8216;halfway through&#8217; polytopes is that &#8216;every edge looks alike&#8217;:</p>
<div align="center"><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Octahedron" rel="nofollow"><img width="100" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-rectified_tetrahedron.png" /></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuboctahedron" rel="nofollow"><img width="100" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-cuboctahedron.png" /></a>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Icosidodecahedron" rel="nofollow"><img width="100" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-icosidodecahedron.png" /></a></div>
<p>In other words, their symmetry group acts transitively on their set of edges.  This is not true for any of other semiregular polyhedra in the tables above (except, of course, the regular ones):</p>
<div align="center">
<p><img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_tetrahedron.png" />  </p>
<p><img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-bitruncated_tetrahedron.png" />  </p>
<p> <img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_cube.png" /></p>
<p><img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_octahedron.png" />  </p>
<p> <img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_dodecahedron.png" /> </p>
<p><img width="140" src="http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/mathematical/400px-truncated_icosahedron.png" />  </p>
</div>
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		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19706</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 04:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19706</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[You got it!  The truncation process I&#039;ve been talking about doesn&#039;t get us the polyhedra with Coxeter diagrams like

&lt;div align=&quot;center&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;
&#8226;---4---o---3---&#8226;
&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

or

&lt;div align=&quot;center&quot;&gt;&lt;b&gt;
&#8226;---4---&#8226;---3---&#8226;
&lt;/b&gt;&lt;/div&gt;

(and the similar ones with the numbers 3 or 5 replacing the 4 here).  So, that&#039;s our next order of business: we want to meet those members of our three families!

The snub polyhedra will remain snubbed.

By the way, I guess you&#039;re not related to &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorold_Gosset&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Thorold Gosset&lt;/a&gt;, discoverer of the famous &#039;Gosset polytopes&#039; in 6, 7 and 8 dimensions.  But it would be cool if you were...]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>You got it!  The truncation process I&#8217;ve been talking about doesn&#8217;t get us the polyhedra with Coxeter diagrams like</p>
<div align="center"><b><br />
&bull;&#8212;4&#8212;o&#8212;3&#8212;&bull;<br />
</b></div>
<p>or</p>
<div align="center"><b><br />
&bull;&#8212;4&#8212;&bull;&#8212;3&#8212;&bull;<br />
</b></div>
<p>(and the similar ones with the numbers 3 or 5 replacing the 4 here).  So, that&#8217;s our next order of business: we want to meet those members of our three families!</p>
<p>The snub polyhedra will remain snubbed.</p>
<p>By the way, I guess you&#8217;re not related to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thorold_Gosset" rel="nofollow">Thorold Gosset</a>, discoverer of the famous &#8216;Gosset polytopes&#8217; in 6, 7 and 8 dimensions.  But it would be cool if you were&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Phil Gossett</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19699</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Gossett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 10 Sep 2012 01:51:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19699</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[More likely (and more generally), I suspect you&#039;re looking for the cases where the two ends, or all three nodes of the Coxeter diagram are filled in. Those (I think) complete the list of all but the chiral Archimedian solids. (Which seemed to be snubbed in this scheme... ;-)]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>More likely (and more generally), I suspect you&#8217;re looking for the cases where the two ends, or all three nodes of the Coxeter diagram are filled in. Those (I think) complete the list of all but the chiral Archimedian solids. (Which seemed to be snubbed in this scheme&#8230; ;-)</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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		<title>By: Phil Gossett</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19693</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Phil Gossett]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 21:06:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19693</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[Not sure this is what you&#039;re looking for, but if you take the Archimedean solids, and exclude those with more than two types of polygon and those that are chiral, you get the solids in your charts, plus one: rhombicuboctahedron.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not sure this is what you&#8217;re looking for, but if you take the Archimedean solids, and exclude those with more than two types of polygon and those that are chiral, you get the solids in your charts, plus one: rhombicuboctahedron.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: Tobias Fritz</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19688</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tobias Fritz]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 17:43:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19688</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[A typo: &quot;When we take the dual of a solid, we replace faces by edges&quot;.

Let me give an attempt at saying something about Puzzle 1. One thing I noticed about those &#039;halfway through&#039; polytopes is their high degree of symmetry: fixing a vertex and rotating the whole thing around that vertex halfway around maps the polytope to itself. Therefore, for every edge hitting that vertex there is an opposite edge also hitting that vertex. Now we can consider that new edge and apply the same argument at its other vertex. In this way, we end up with a sequence of edges lying on a great circle.

So in order to solve the puzzle, I would try to find a good explanation for that symmetry.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A typo: &#8220;When we take the dual of a solid, we replace faces by edges&#8221;.</p>
<p>Let me give an attempt at saying something about Puzzle 1. One thing I noticed about those &#8216;halfway through&#8217; polytopes is their high degree of symmetry: fixing a vertex and rotating the whole thing around that vertex halfway around maps the polytope to itself. Therefore, for every edge hitting that vertex there is an opposite edge also hitting that vertex. Now we can consider that new edge and apply the same argument at its other vertex. In this way, we end up with a sequence of edges lying on a great circle.</p>
<p>So in order to solve the puzzle, I would try to find a good explanation for that symmetry.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19686</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 13:20:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19686</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[So, can anyone guess the gaping hole that&#039;s visible from the charts near the end of this post?]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>So, can anyone guess the gaping hole that&#8217;s visible from the charts near the end of this post?</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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	<item>
		<title>By: John Baez</title>
		<link>http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/2012/09/07/symmetry-and-the-fourth-dimension-part-7/#comment-19684</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[John Baez]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 09 Sep 2012 10:40:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://johncarlosbaez.wordpress.com/?p=11137#comment-19684</guid>
		<description><![CDATA[If the words and occasional formulas ever get you down, just look at the pictures for a while.  Especially in this post, they&#039;re organized in complex and interesting patterns---like the 3 families here.  The words and formulas are our way of getting the verbal side of our brain fully engaged with these patterns.  But the visual side is equally important (at least for me).]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If the words and occasional formulas ever get you down, just look at the pictures for a while.  Especially in this post, they&#8217;re organized in complex and interesting patterns&#8212;like the 3 families here.  The words and formulas are our way of getting the verbal side of our brain fully engaged with these patterns.  But the visual side is equally important (at least for me).</p>
]]></content:encoded>
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